Great post on Indy’s site

More about governesses, though of an intellectual bent, rather than fiction fantasy. πŸ™‚Β  Indy brought up some interesting points about F/F fiction and relationships. Check it out here: More on Governesses, Dammit.

What do you guys think? Do women like the same things as men (even if it’s with other women)? For those of you who identify as only top or only bottom/brat, do you prefer a Really Toppy Woman? Either in fiction or RL? Do you prefer something more egalitarian? Or does that turn you off?

No judgments here, mind! Just would love to hear what you think. And let Indy know what you think too, if you’ve a mind to. πŸ™‚

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36 Responses to Great post on Indy’s site

  1. Mil says:

    My post on Indys blog:

    Super interesting post! I hadn’t really considered much of what you’ve covered. I’m a bottom (F/F), and not a switch but I can relate to what you (Indy) and Alyx have described as a change of taste. I don’t have many fantasies of the headmistress variety anymore either… for me I think it was a maturing around the notion of (non-sexual) intimacy. I guess my kink has become more about connection, and even in my fantasies I find it hard to achieve the desired level of connection with a headmistress. What’s interesting, is now I think about it, my tastes changed/evolved/matured about the time I started reading a lot F/F kink fiction.

    • Alyx says:

      Nice response, Mil. Except you didn’t specify what turns you on now. πŸ˜‰

      • Mil says:

        Well, it might be easier just to give you a fantasy example:

        So, I’m in a cool forest, right.. and there’s a stream and on the banks of the stream are these large flat and smooth rocks that retain the suns heat. That’s where I lay… sunbathing.. facedown.. and then… …well, I’d better not say because I might break the internet. πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜€

    • Indy says:

      MIl, I really like what you’ve said about connection. There’s something about the teacher/ headmistress figure that still works for me, sort of. The problem is, once the connection develops between student and headmistress, the student usually starts to behave and so ends the fantasy!

      I found Loki Renard’s Sarge character in her newest offering, Starstrike, to be an excellent combination between governess and lover!

  2. Ash says:

    First I just have to say that I am a brat, but I am NOT submissive. πŸ˜‰

    I don’t get the impression that women like the same as men, because then I might enjoy M/f and I don’t. πŸ˜› But that is just my take on it.

    I do like to read about a really Toppy Top in fiction, but I think I prefer that person to be a sort of mentor to the brat, not the lover (thought I do realise that I have some stories like that on my blog). If I was in a relationship with a Top I would want to be an equal and just spanked because I like spanking… in fact, I’m not sure if I would want to be disciplined by my lover. If I were to be disciplined I think it would have to be for a few things that we had agreed I had to work on, and not just when she thought I had been a “bad girl” because she is the boss in the relationship… though I am VERY open for role playing. πŸ˜‰

    • Alyx says:

      I think your first sentence was self-evident, Ash. πŸ˜€

      I think Indy’s point was that even lesbians look for the same things from other women that straight women look for from men — someone with great authority. But maybe that’s just in fiction?

      • Ash says:

        Yeah… I was going to adress that point, but I forgot. πŸ˜› What I was thinking was that men have a different type of authority than women. There are different typed of women too, but what I look for in a woman I rarely see in men. (No offence to anyone). I think men and women have a different way of being and the type of authority they eh… show is also different.
        But this is just my take on it.

        I have sometimes wondered if I’m biased for being a lesbian, but I think about this opinion, not. Yes, I feel more comfortable reading M/m than M/f, but M/m is not the same as F/f either because I feel that the authority is different when the top is male.

        • Indy says:

          Ash, I completely agree that male authority and female authority, at least in our culture, are very different. I think the underlying assumption for me was that women use good judgment and strength of character, whereas male power is more physical or rests in a superior position of some kind. Perhaps that’s due to something inherently male, but I’ve always had the impression that it was due to laziness stemming from being born in a societally dominant position and never having had to earn it.

          That’s not to say that there aren’t men out there who prefer psychological domination to physical. In fact, I’ve played with a few, and I really treasure those sessions. Maybe even just as much as with the few women I know who like being Truly Toppy.

          I also agree with you about preferring to be spanked just because I or my partner likes it, rather than as part of a more serious arrangement. I also agree about role play– it’s a good way of bringing in the hot trappings of punishment without a hint of RL power imbalance.

  3. Micah says:

    I read the M/F ebooks because they are accessible and there are some good authors out there. What really turns me off is when the guy is arrogant about his role in the relationship.
    Arrogance is something I haven’t found in F/F stories. I want to read about a caring, nurturing relationship and it’s more prevalent in the F/F stories than in the M/F ones (IMHO).
    As for fantasies, over the years they always center around protection. I must have some Freudian issue I don’t remember. πŸ™‚ They always center around a partner as well. No teachers, governesses, policemen for me. Just my soul mate.

    • Alyx says:

      That’s really interesting, Micah. πŸ™‚ Was this always true for you, even when you were a child? Or did you not have spanking fantasies as a child? Because I had the inclination from a very young age, and it was before I thought about a soul mate. So governesses, etc., were a stand-in.

      • Ash says:

        Like Mary Poppins? πŸ˜›

        • Alyx says:

          Actually more Maria from the Sound of Music than Mary Poppins. πŸ˜€ But yes, Julie Andrews was an early crush. (The Mary Poppins books were quite scary….she was very intimidating top in those! *g*)

          • Ash says:

            Oh right. I remembered you talking about Julie Andrews and I completely forgot about Maria! *LOL* We have talked about The Sound of Music so many times… how could I forget? πŸ˜›
            Actually, I watched a documentary about the woman who wrote Mary Poppins and I’ve heard people say that her books were scary… so was the woman writing the books! I’ve heard about Jane breaking the rules and ending up in some world where she meets this man who says she has to stay there forever! O_o Poor kid!

      • Micah says:

        The earliest spanking fantasies I remember were around 8 or 9 years of age. The ones I remember from that time was still related to marriage. I wanted to be Samantha from Bewitched, or on The Big Valley. πŸ™‚

        • Alyx says:

          Thanks for explaining. πŸ™‚ You reminded of something: I had the biggest crush on Samantha too! Did you know Elizabeth Montgomery narrated two of Anne Rice’s “Beauty” spanking classics? So I suspect she was kinky too. πŸ™‚

    • Indy says:

      MIcah, I completely agree with you about the guys who are arrogant about their roles in the relationship. I call that type of spanking story a Cowboy Story, and I can only take them in small doses (largely because the cowboy is always really good in bed, though I suspect that is a less important redeeming virtue for you!) I’m also really intrigued that you’ve fantasized about a soulmate from very early on.

  4. Jane says:

    I tend to prefer stories where there is an authority figure doing the spanking rather than a lover. In the stories where a lover spanks the other it seems like a large imbalance in the relationship. I would never enter a relationship like that. Also i don’t like the m/f stories because they tend to be more severe than the f/f stories. I like spanking stories but I don’t like them brutal.

    • Alyx says:

      Welcome, Jane! πŸ™‚ Thanks for sharing your opinion on the matter. I agree with you that in most lover stories there appears to be an imbalance, but perhaps that’s because it’s hard to portray a switch type of relationship that people would like to read about. TMT did it very hotly in her Redemption story, but that’s the only one I can think of off-hand. Most tend to be the type straight men write where two bimbos take turns spanking each other, and that’s not what I want to read either. πŸ˜€

      • Indy says:

        “Most tend to be the type straight men write where two bimbos take turns spanking each other, and that’s not what I want to read either.”

        Alyx, you nearly made me snort wine through my nose with that one. When I first began watching spanking films, I remember my reaction to the F/F bimbo ones. I commented to a vanilla lesbian friend of mine that I only needed to see whether the women were looking at each other or the camera to know whether I wanted to watch it. She said, “oh, honey, all you have to do is look at the fingernails.”

        I am, however, shocked to know that there are two-bimbo-spanking-each-other stories, as I never thought the group of men at whom such stories are aimed could actually write.
        The F/F stories I’ve read that were clear written by a man just have a woman teacher acting like a dirty old man.

        • Alyx says:

          Good point. *g* Yes, I hate those “woman teacher acting like dirty old man” type of stories too! It’s just interesting how men’s and women’s preferences differ (in general, of course. There are always exceptions). But then again, to paraphrase Gloria Steinem, there are more differences between any two individuals than there are between men and women as a whole.

  5. Hupotasso says:

    In both RL and fiction I used to primarily seek out and enjoy governess and teacher or headmistress/principal stories, and I still often enjoy them, but in both contexts, as I grew older, my favorites have involved egalitarian romantic relationships.

    I don’t think stories (and RL) need to involve switches to involve egalitarian relationships– and I don’t think Alyx, or anyone else here, has said they do. After all, Alyx’s Cassie and Nicky, and Clare and Erin stories involve, in my mind, anyway, egalitarian couples, which is one key reason why I love so many of Alyx’s stories. For me, I prefer it in both fiction and RL when the Dom and sub are relatively close in age, and at approximately the same places in their lives. Although sometimes….

    I’ve found TMT’s “Redemption” to be the most erotic story I’ve ever read, but I read a story yesterday on thespankinkglibrary.org that I also think is incredibly hot, Elliej’s “In The Shower,” http://www.thespankinglibrary.org/index.php?func=authpage&author=elliej

    • Alyx says:

      Thanks for commenting, Hupo! πŸ™‚ I’m glad you find my story couples to be in egalitarian relationships, because that’s how I think of them too. (And like yourself, what I need in RL as well.)

      Thanks for sharing that link — it reacquainted me with a site I’d not visited in years. Fortunately dominating a woman or being dominated by one, sexually and/or through discipline, is completely separate from whether they have an egalitarian relationship.

      • Indy says:

        “Fortunately dominating a woman or being dominated by one, sexually and/or through discipline, is completely separate from whether they have an egalitarian relationship.”

        You know, I have no problem seeing a sexual desire to dominate or to be dominated as separate from an egalitarian relationship. Still, I find it much harder to separate the two with a relationship that involves discipline, at least in fiction, where the spanking is often completely nonconsensual. Loki Renard’s Rigel series first struck me that way. Rigel was in charge because she wanted to be, and Sadie basically had no say in their relationship. I liked the later books in that series better, as it became clear that Rigel didn’t get away with behaving selfishly.

        • Hupotasso says:

          Indy-

          As for punishment spankings, I’m generalizing but one of the differences I often see between MF stories and FF stories is that in an MF story, I agree that punishment spankings are almost never consensual. In contrast, in a fair number of the FF punishment stories I’ve read, the punishment IS consensual in the sense that both the Dom and sub have agreed in advance that certain behavior will lead to punishment, and sometimes, the sub has even asked in advance for help with the behavior that led to the punishment.

          In TMT’s “Redemption,” there are punishment spankings for violations of “hard rules” agreed to in advance; the short story is extremely erotic, but doesn’t it contain punishment spankings between a Dom and sub in an egalitarian relationship? Also, in Loki Renard’s Rigel, I think of the spanking

          • Hupotasso says:

            Sorry. I meant to finish by writing that I think that in Rigel, Tank gives Rigel a punishment spanking even though they are friends who have a fairly egalitarian relationship– when it happens, aren’t they business partners?

          • Indy says:

            Hi Hupotasso, I’ll get right back to you as soon as I’ve re-read Redemption. It is important to know one’s sources thoroughly in this kind of discussion, I always say! No, no, of course this is not just an excuse to delve into TMT’s super-hot stories again. Absolutely not! πŸ˜‰

            Seriously, I’ve been thinking about your comment and will respond more fully.

  6. Indy says:

    Thanks, everyone, for heading over to my blog, and especially for this really interesting discussion!

  7. Hupotasso says:

    And just to clarify, I think that a strong, egalitarian relationship can involve erotic as well as punishment spankings. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. πŸ˜‰

    • Indy says:

      I don’t disagree with you at all about that, Hupotasso. And you’re right, Redemption captures that dynamic very well– although I’m not sure it would have worked as well for me without the switch in roles toward the end. We don’t see what happens physically, but the the submissive partner certainly assumes the dominant role with authority.

      Even without the switching, though, Redemption is an unusually nuanced examination of conflict in a relationship. Yes, Anni is the one who has crossed a line, and Ryn is deeply hurt by that, but Anni’s insecurity stems in no small part from Ryn’s own demons. You’re right: I rarely see that complexity in M/F spanking fiction. I do, however, see it in RL M/F DD relationships, (at least in those that don’t stem from an abhorrent belief that God has commanded Man to keep Woman in line).

      I also don’t think I’ve ever seen in F/F fiction the line, so common in M/F fiction at Bethany’s Woodshed, that just as a ship can only have one captain, a household can only have one leader. It’s usually phrased in a gender-neutral way, but we all know what it means. Yuck.

      Yeah, there’s a reason (at least one!) that I like F/F fiction.

    • Alyx says:

      I think Redemption is an unusually nuanced examination of a discipline relationship for even F/F stories, actually. Not sure I’ve seen it in any other, to be honest….including my own. *makes face* What I love about that story (besides the obvious, I mean *cough*) is that it speaks to me of how a RL relationship can be. Aside from any top/bottom aspects, there is the trickiness of learning to deal with a partner’s issues and sensitivities and insecurities. And there is the deep love, which allows it to happen. πŸ™‚

      I believe those aspects can be found in F/F, M/F, F/M, and M/M RL relationships, of course. Whether or not the partners switch roles. But fiction….that’s another story (pardon the pun *g*).

      • Indy says:

        Yes, Redemption is a truly remarkable story, isn’t it?

        I agree with you that those aspects can be found in all types of relationships. but I do think that the different ways we’re trained to deal with male and female insecurities automatically bring a power imbalance to an M/F relationship unless both partners work awfully hard to avoid it. Sigh.

        • Alyx says:

          I bow to your vast (compared to me *vbg*) experience in this area, Indy. But yes, at times I feel very lucky to avoid the tricky power imbalance that an M/F relationship can be subject to. (Other times, I despair at how F/F relationships can be even trickier, considering how complex women can be! πŸ˜€ )

  8. Hupotasso says:

    “I think Redemption is an unusually nuanced examination of a discipline relationship for even F/F stories, actually. ”

    Here, here!!! :). It’s an old lawyer’s trick. You can only come up with one great example to support a point you want to make on a universal level so you preface your only great example with the phrase “for example,” thereby suggesting that there are also many other equally strong examples “out there” that you won’t bother to waste anybody’s time describing. πŸ™‚

    Redemption is my all time favorite spanking story, and at the moment, I’m hard-pressed to think of ANY short story I’ve read that does such a masterful job of capturing the complexity of interpersonal relationships.

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