If you were following the saga of the “Gay Girl in Damascus,” then you might have heard about her recent unveiling (no pun intended). I only discovered the blog a couple of weeks ago, right before she disappeared, supposedly arrested by President Bashar al-Assad’s police force.
I had only read one post, but it portrayed the girl as open and courageous in a country where being gay is a crime. She’d been threatened with rape by village men who knew her kind of evil must be stopped, but her father managed to put them off. “Go away,” he warned her. “They will come back, and next time I won’t be here to stop them.” But she refused to go. I feared the worst for her…it haunted me.
And now it’s come to light that it was all a hoax. An American man, based in Scotland, wrote the whole thing. This is his statement, though he and his wife are currently hiding in Turkey, away from the mess they stirred up:
“I never expected this level of attention. While the narrative voice may have been fictional, the facts on this blog are true and not misleading as to the situation on the ground. I do not believe that I have harmed anyone — I feel that I have created an important voice for issues that I feel strongly about.”
I disagree with you, Mr. MacMaster. What you done has destroyed the credibility of so many women and gay people who are TRULY suffering. If you wanted to bring attention to the situation you could’ve done so honestly. You could’ve used your writing skills to present us with real people and real lives. Instead, you have given people one more reason to doubt everything they read, one more excuse to ignore what goes on far away from us because we cannot see it with our own eyes. You should be ashamed of yourself. I am certainly ashamed to be from the same country as you.
Alyxfic 
*no words, but complete support for what you say*
In no circumstances is it acceptable to present fiction as truth in this manner. And the more people lie about it, the more people who speak the truth will be disbelieved. If an issue is important (as this one very clearly is) it is especially important that people who are suffering be believed.
In complete agreement with you both. Apparently he is now thinking of using his ‘experience’ to write a book. *shakes head* I heard an interview with him – he seems to have no real concept of the damage he has done.
Oh no… now there’s another one… *sinking feeling*
Oh lorrrd. *derisive snort* And now make money off of your crime….that’s the American way. 😛
The comments from you ladies are so much more eloquent than anything I can say…
I agree wholeheartedly with each of you. How can someone do something like that under the guise of love and caring, when in actually, he’s making things even more difficult and dangerous for those he pretends to stand for?
It’s amazing what people can justify in their minds, isn’t it? There was a GREAT post by Brian Spears in response to this, and it so well illustrates how this mindset of entitlement can come about. Read it here: http://therumpus.net/2011/06/a-note-to-my-fellow-white-males/.
WOW! Great blog posting!!! I went ahead and read the responses to his posting as well. One jerk was defending the entire event. How can anyone say it’s OK to post fiction as factual journalism and believe you aren’t doing anything wrong?
At the VERY least, you undermind the writers that are actually writing from a factual background. In this case, it’s much worse…the victims are the people whose lives are now endangered to a much greater extent than before…
Ummm…Sorry for the typos I’m seeing in my responses. Typing at 3am in the dark does that to you…
Uh-huh. Which would make one question the wisdom of posting to a blog when one should be in bed, does it not? 😕
I believe you are attempting one of those %#*% ‘toppy hints” Alyx…
I’m so glad I don’t take hints very well…
But since I always want to improve myself, this morning (3:45am) I’ve turned the light on so I can see the darned keys…
The terrible, awful, funny thing about it is…according to Slate, both MacMaster AND the Lez Get Real blogger (who was also outed today as a man, pretending to be lesbian blogger “Paula Brooks”) were corresponding and “Amina often flirted with Brooks, neither of the men realizing the other was pretending to be a lesbian.” Talk about two guys who deserve each other.
Okay, now that is funny. 😆 The kind of better-to-laugh-than-cry kind of funny, but also this-would-make-a-great-satire kind of funny. Except in a story/TV series/film no one would ever find it believable!
As the old saying goes, ‘Welcome to the Internet, where men are men, women are men and children are FBI agents.’
This is the sort of bullshit that not only puts gay issues on the back burner, but marginalizes women as a whole and makes us damn near invisible. This is why I did podcasts and occasional pictures and videos things, because I think it’s important to show that you are who you are. It’s a little more difficult in the kink community to be sure, because for obvious reasons people don’t necessarily want their kinks bleeding into their vanilla lives, but in general we need more high profile womens voices online. Off the top of my head I can name three, The Bloggess, Jule and Brandy (who appear to have dropped off the face of the earth) and from the kink corner, Mistress Matisse. There are a few more, but still only a handful.
Women have to do something to correct this. If we lurk all the time and hide in the shadows and the only real exposure we get is when an attention seeking man pretends to be a woman, then we are actively participating in our own marginalization.
Tom MacMaster is an asshole to be sure, but we can only fix this issue by being more vocal and present ourselves.
As the old saying goes, ‘Welcome to the Internet, where men are men, women are men and children are FBI agents.’
I’d never heard that one — that’s a good one! 😆
I agree with you about being more open, but it’s an uphill battle. The very nature of the internet (and the reason there are so many bloggers) is that its anonymity makes it attractive to people who wouldn’t otherwise post (or read, for that matter!). I salute you for posting your real self online in so many formats (though it would be easy enough to invent a “real self” too, in this day and age *snort*) — I would not have that courage. Especially with all the nuts out there.
I’ve marched in gay pride parades and let magazines take my picture and submitted testimony with my real name to the government in support of gay marriage. But the kink thing….that’s still too personal for me. I’m not ashamed of it, but it does tell people exactly what turns me on, and that’s not something I’m comfortable sharing with my nearest and dearest. Well, except for lovers. And my brat. And my friends Pippin and V. Hmm…..heck, give me a couple of years, maybe I’ll put up a vid too. *LOL!*
I also agree with Loki but I think you MUST be at peace with yourself before you can put yourself ‘out there’. If not – the sharks will eat you alive!
Where you live is also gonna play a part in what you feel you should do. Its only been in the last decade or so in the area I live that you don’t have to worry about having your tires slashed if you’re a known lesbian. It’s great to see the young girls feeling confident in their ability to be open where I live. But it’s still a huge stigma they carry around.
As far as being a lesbian (hell, I’m still trying to decide if I’m gay or bi) with the kink I have: Man…I’ve lurked on this website forever before I even got my courage up to write comments! Frankly, I’ve spent the last 5-6 months trying to ‘find myself’ so I can come to terms with who I am. That’s why I’ve finally gotten the nerve to post. You guys seem to have it together and are OK with who you are. I want to get to that point so I’m hanging out with you “wise women”.
Thanks for that reminder that, even in this day and age, there are places in the world (including “enlightened countries”) where being out of the mainstream isn’t safe. I’m actually glad to hear you lurked around my site for months before posting. It means you felt safe to finally speak up, and that makes me happy.
Part of the reason I write the stories I do is to provide what *I* was looking for when I was first coming out. First F/F relationships, then F/F discipline. I do so well remember the thrill, sheer relief, and then celebration of finding out there were others out there like me. And I could see them portrayed somewhere, even if not in the mainstream media. Things are much better now than they were back then, but we still hunger for it, and we all still must make our own way to personal acceptance.
Good luck on your journey, Micah. And for what it’s worth — it gets better. In fact, it gets to be AWESOME! 😀
See, Alyx… your statement is a good example of why I felt OK enough to participate on the blog…Your statement above fits me perfectly. I first started cruising the fiction sites with f/f relationships but no matter what, I always tried to find stories with discipline themes that were few and far between. The fiction you and these other wonderful women write is EXACTLY what I’ve tried to find before and couldn’t. Then to top it off, I’ve found through reading the archives that many ladies’ thoughts very much match my own. It’s helping lead me from questioning everything about myself to realizing maybe what I like and want is OK.
LOL… I moved out of a depressed state of mind about the whole thing within the last couple of months. Now, I’m into frustrated anger that I’ve waited so freakin long to figure what I want instead of what mainstream says I should be. I’ll probably always be lurking rather than participating in the lifestyle but even commenting on the blogs is a huge step from before.
I truly mean it when I say THANK YOU to each of you ladies for putting your thoughts and feelings out there. *eg*
TMT – kind of an aside – but I think you write beautifully!
I agree with HAL — you do write beautifully. 🙂 And I love it that you bring forth the “old ways,” the ways of wisdom, when you speak. It’s a great reminder that the ancient spirit is still alive and well, and beats in the hearts of those open to it. (Reminds me of a certain housekeeper in Cornwall, talking about the little people. *smile*)
Definitely some of us are better armored for the glare of being exposed in public. I do honor those women, as well as the ones quietly foment rebellion. We are all needed in the struggle. 🙂
I think both of the impostors have some mental issues. I can’t believe these deceptions went on for so long and happened at such big name blogs.
Don’t know about mental issues, but how much you want to bet they profit from it somehow? 😡
This doesn’t seem to be a popular opinion, but in my view women can be just as direct and passionate and consistently vocal as men. Gender based arguments are the cancer of any hope of equality. Yes, we have periods. Yes, we have moods, but femininity doesn’t need to be passive or quiet and every time we let ourselves off the hook because of a 1/4 of a chromosome, we do our entire gender a disservice. My vagina doesn’t make me any less able to participate consistently in discourse on or offline and neither does yours. (You being any female reading this.)
Has it occurred to anyone that the reason why these men pretending to be women have done so well is because they did a damn good job of portraying our issues? A better job than we ourselves have done? Do you think maybe that’s something we should consider? Something we should address? Because I’m not hearing that in any of the debates on this issue.
There’s a darker side to this feminine culture of being nice and indirect and quiet. It stifles voices. Look around you. How much dissent do you see? Bugger all. Everyone is too busy being complimentary and kind to really care about the issue at hand. It’s more important apparently, to bond over shared opinion than to really hash out an issue. That’s a repeating theme in female culture, and it’s not one that serves us.
I wish more of us had been socialized not to fall back on femininity as a reason to be quiet. As a whole women are too afraid to be seen as bitches. We’re too damn afraid to say what we think (unless we couch it in something ‘nice’ first.) We take refuge in femininity and we use it as an excuse to be quiet and passive and pretty and well liked and then when bad things happen, we all sit around in a state of nigh victim-hood, blaming the men who dared speak for us and explaining away the reasons why we couldn’t speak out ourselves.
It’s not enough to call Tom MacMasters out. We have to either speak out ourselves, or if we don’t feel able for whatever reason, throw our support behind those who do.
It’s funny… I would have said yours was the popular opinion. I actually disagree with it, and agree with TMT down below. The thing is… I’m often worried about expressing my feelings because it seems that the general consensus agrees with you, and some of them can be very nasty to anyone who disagrees.
In this thread… I thought I would be the only one who thought this. And while I am upset that this is happened, I am relieved that for once, I am not the only one who thinks this. For once, I am in the majority. Perhaps, I was all along, and many of us have been shut up out of fear of the others. I don’t know…
I would say this. Generally speaking, I care about what other people think. I don’t think men do. If you come across a right prat, the odds are that it will be a male prat. I think perhaps that this is a critical difference.
Personally… I believe that men and women are different, and trying to pretend otherwise is wrong. I do not think that we should all be blended together and told that gender doesn’t matter. After all… if gender doesn’t matter, why are we lesbians? I do think womanhood is different to what society defines as “feminine”, and I don’t think it should be rejected. Something I once said to Sir… a butch lesbian and a man are not interchangeable.
And now I hope to God that someone agrees with this… and I can’t exactly delete it if no one does… *slightly worried*
BickaBecka, I for one am happy you disagree with my opinion and have said so. No, I don’t agree with it 100%, but I’m happy you spoke your mind. I’m not sure who is nasty to you, but if it was me, then I apologize. I believe in discussing issues, not making personal attacks.
You have however, read into my comments what wasn’t there, which means your argument is something of a straw man. I never said men and women weren’t different. I said being a woman doesn’t mean that you can’t be consistently vocal. I know plenty of women who are and I’d argue that several of them can be found in these comments.
No, it wasn’t you. I’m sorry if I gave that impression. It wasn’t anyone here at all, actually, if anyone’s worried.
I apologise if my argument was malformed… I guess I’m not thinking clearly… I’m slightly unwell at the moment.
Well I hope you feel better soon Becka, but please no need to apologize. My argument (as it is pointed out later on) is shoddy in parts too. I’m very much enjoying seeing you in the debate. It’s the process that matters I reckon, not how right anyone is 🙂
Thank you 🙂 It was nice to see you too.
I agree that women can be just as direct and passionate and consistently vocal as men. However like you say many girls and women aren’t socialized to be so. The socialization you receive as a kid adds to the basis of your personality and socialization continues in adulthood. Its hard to reverse the thinking and behavior patterns you perceive as normal or even be to able to detect socialization from your own desires.
I agree completely Cutey, which is why I’m here, putting my two cents out there and hopefully providing some encouragement to those who want to be vocal but were socialized otherwise. We all have our own struggles and I accept that many might want to avoid confrontation, which is fine. What’s not fine in my book, is rationalizing that avoidance as ‘femininity’ and calling those who do speak out ‘masculine’.
WOW…I think Loki and TMT are choosing different paths to get to their objective which is exactly what is needed…
The style that gets my attention may be totally different than the one that catches yours…
So if there are different types of listeners, it only stands to reason that numerous methods of getting the message out are needed…
Some men will never hear a softspoken approach because they won’t respect it…others will never hear anything they perceive as feminine aggression because it angers them … but if they won’t hear one approach, maybe they will listen to another. Besides, we’re the most effective when we use our OWN voice, whether it’s soft or loud. If it’s sincere and your own, you will have a greater draw to the one you’re speaking to. Hopefully, there are as many different voices being used as there are different ‘listeners’ out there.
Well done, ladies…
One last comment and I’ll shut up…
After leaving this blog I went onto another site. I happened to read a short story and was surprised at how it illustrates my point. It is FICTION but I still think it’s a story with a moral…. Feel free to read if you like…
http://xenafiction.net/scrolls/penelope_street_dancing_with_the_bride.html
Very nice comment, Micah, very nice. I really like this part: “The style that gets my attention may be totally different than the one that catches yours…So if there are different types of listeners, it only stands to reason that numerous methods of getting the message out are needed…”
That’s very true.
I strongly agree with all of that, but I extra strongly agree with this bit. Thank you. Thank you for posting this. I myself have been afraid to say things like this… Thank you. I agree with it totally.
TMT wrote: “In the second wave in the 60s, 70s and 80s women decided that we didn’t want to compete with men, we wanted to stop the world being defined and run from a patriarchal viewpoint. We wanted to show a different way – here are some friends of mine dancing on the nuclear silos at Greenham Common Airbase in 1982. I wasn’t part of that action – though I did do others at the time.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/yourgreenham/video/page/0,,2072731,00.html
Greenham Common was returned to common land – the missiles have gone and now parents take their kids to play there. Women danced, cut down the fence, walked naked covered in ashes, released balloons, made art, wrote, talked to the guards, refused to stop singing until the nuclear missiles were decommissioned. It was done while celebrating ourselves as women, as unique and hormonal, as crazy and sane, mothers, duaghters, lovers, celibates, as vocal as screaming witches and as quiet as serene meditation.”
Something I wrote on April 19th… I was going to post it, but eventually didn’t. I didn’t think it was a good idea. But I did save it.
“What do you do when you consider yourself a person of high morals? And you have a belief. But you are afraid to express that belief, because if you do, people up ’til than had been very nice will turn around and hate you. They’ll be extremely aggressive, and scare you. Just for holding that belief. You’re afraid of them, and how they might react. And so you keep quiet. But then you feel you’ve done wrong by staying quiet. Meanwhile, they continue to feel so secure in their own little worlds, thinking they ARE the world, thinking that bullying people who are scared of them is the right thing to do.”
Whyfore, I wonder, when I say ‘women can be as vocal as men’ do people assume that I’m saying women should be like men. I’m not saying women should be vocal like men, I’m saying that vocal women are just as feminine as the shrinking violet types.
There’s a logical fallacy in your argument. I don’t think being direct *is* masculine. In fact, I think the dichotomy that has been set up is an entirely false one, and more than a little sexist to boot. You’re essentially saying that if a woman chooses to be vibrant and vocal and direct, she is masculine, and that, to me, isn’t just wildly incorrect, it puts women back in the box we’ve been trying to get out of. The beauty of all that suffering you talk about with the suffragettes is that they wanted us to be able to be as we wanted to be in the world, whether that is quiet and demure, or loud and vocal.
The problem is, if you choose the quiet path, then others will speak for you – and that’s the issue here. a man spoke for women’s issues and he did so in a way that gripped the minds and hearts of many. All I’m saying is that instead of retreating shyly to our womyn caves with the lunar cycles and whatnot, we might very well want to consider speaking out ourselves. Because if we don’t – we’re invisible. I take extreme exception that our gender prevents us from doing so, and even more extreme exception that doing so makes us masculine. Talk about cutting one another off at the knees before we get a chance to walk.
Like Richard Bach (a notoriously unapologetic penis creature) once wrote: argue for your limitations and they’re yours.
‘I don’t aspire to expressing myself in a man’s world, as men do. To walk in their shoes, wearing their power-suits, employing their tactics of aggression and disrespect. Why would I want to subvert my nature to theirs just to win an argument, when that very process turns women only into secondhand men?’
Damn, TMT, that is cold. I won’t go too far with this because we’re getting wildly off topic and into nuclear territory, but I don’t believe in a ‘man’s world’ I believe in ‘the world’, you know, the world women and men share together and have equal responsibility for and share in?
I think the phrase ‘secondhand men’ is also pretty darned disrespectful too. There’s a hefty dose of cognitive dissonance in that paragraph, on the one hand you want to be free to embrace your femininity, on the other hand, a woman who lives her life in a way you view to be ‘too masculine’ is a ‘secondhand man.’ That sentence just drips with derision, whilst claiming to be about respect. It’s not nice to anyone. It doesn’t embrace anyone’s uniqueness. It’s just another way of hard balling a certain type of femininity at the expense of all women.
I really should stay out of this… not thinking clearly and all that… but I don’t think that’s what she’s saying. If I could repeat myself… there is a difference between being masculine and being a man, being feminine and being a woman. I’m not saying women shouldn’t be masculine (whatever that means). I’m saying we shouldn’t try to be men. It strikes me that TMT is talking about a strength in women that is accessible without having to try to turn ourselves into men.
What is the phrase? I am woman, hear me roar…
*blushes*
Thank you so much… in a way I’m still a bit scared, but in another way, I’m glad to have said it. May I say how glad I am you posted what you did… I wouldn’t have said anything otherwise, and It’s really good to know that I’m not the only one that thinks this.
I don’t want to hijack the thread… but I would be interested in talking with you about it at some time, if you liked.
Hm. Well. I probably owe you an apology. It’s easy, as someone pointed out once, to read what isn’t there – or rather for two people to read the same thing and get a completely different message out of it. I apologize for taking your comments out of the context they were intended in. Or more to the point, for taking one sliver of them and hyper-focusing on it until it had no meaning at all. For what it’s worth, I do see the points you were making and I do agree that women are many things and that our power, if you will, is often expressed in different ways.
I agree with Micah different people communicate in different ways and its not fair to pressure anyone to communicate in a way that different from you they are or what they believe they are. That said, in my experience and I always taught that vocal and aggressive won over quiet and submissiveness. Now i see and agree with TMT’s point that the patriarchal society developed favoring aggressive personalities and that a better would include diverse types of personalities. I agree with Loki that this preference wasn’t based on any true biological differences in Men and Women because we’re a lot more similar than different. However, common knowledge points out difference regardless of how factual it is. Many people believe whole-heartily in differences so in the end it does add up to there being a “man’s world and a woman’s world”. I think women as a whole have less amounts of vocal and aggressive people because society encouraged the girls who would have developed those personalities to develop in different ways. I don’t know how society could fix this, you try to change the world and give power to everyone regardless of how out spoken they are or encourage more girls to develop vocal personalities. Or try both. I see limitations and positives in both sides.
Great response, cutey!!!
“There are limitations and positives to both sides”…that’s way I think we need all the different ways of getting the message out…*bg*
*heavy sigh* I will never be a typist…or a proofeader….
I mean,”that’s… WHY… I think…”
Thank you everyone for your different points of view. When I first posted my initial outraged post, it never occurred to me I’d stir up such a response. 🙂 But I’m impressed by your eloquence and the amount of thought that went into your opinions. I’m also grateful to have such strong, intelligent, courageous women make themselves known here. I want you to know I cherish each of your individual contributions…I really do.
*group
swathug!* 😆Thank you, Alyx *hugs*
Mmm, indeed. As Edwin McCain put it:
I’ve dropped out
Burned up
Fought my way back from the dead
Tuned in
Turned on
Remembered the things you said
But then…..
….I’ll be captivated,
I’ll hang from your lips
Instead of the gallows
Of heartache that hang from above
I’ll be your cryin’ shoulder
I’ll be love suicide
I’ll be better when I’m older
I’ll be the greatest fan of your life
Thank YOU, TMT. 🙂
Are his acts really so bad? It’s possible that Ann Frank was fictional. So what? Julius Caesar happened so long ago that he might as well be fictional. Seems like the guy is just reminding us that, while gays are trying to get the right to marry in the United States, gays in the Middle East are trying to get the right to exist.
It’s one of those “Does the end justify the means?” questions, PB. In my opinion, rarely. The means ARE the ends. He could’ve made his little reminder without duping people. He chose to dupe people. At the worst it’s irresponsible and possibly put into danger real people who live there. At the least, it’s a bit cowardly.
Yeah, but now we’re talking about it. The middle east has been this way for thousands of years. Women didn’t get the right to vote because women kept their mouths shut. And now we’re talking about gays in Syria. Yes, the man is evil. Horrible man. But people lie every single day. 7 billion people lie 1000 times each every single day, but this is the man, and this his lie, that is important to you.
Really, this isn’t rhetorical–think about that.
It’s interesting you should mention Ann Frank… the NAZIs performed experiments into hypothermia by immersing jewish prisoners in ice cold water. Many died in the process, but the NAZIs discovered many important things on treating hypothermia. These days, such knowledge can be used to save lives; many more than were lost in the experiments. Perhaps it wasn’t really so bad then?
So I’m a Nazi, then. I don’t hate a guy writing fiction about stuff that actually happens, so I approve of killing Jews. Very smart.
I was going to call you an idiot, but then it hit me: you didn’t write that about me because you are stupid. You wrote that because you are a parrot. You repeat what other people tell you. You aren’t stupid, BickaBecka, you are a slave. And I don’t argue with slaves.
I might write it off as just ignorant but well-meaning behavior, were it not for his reaction when he finally was busted. He was very defensive and showed zero remorse at first about having put the actual people he was supposedly trying to help in danger. The Guardian interview with him is pretty damning: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/13/gay-girl-damascus-tom-macmaster
“He had made her a lesbian, he said, in an attempt “to develop my writing conversation skills … It’s a challenge. I liked the challenge.
“I also had the thing that I like to write, and my own vanity is … if you want to compliment me, tell you like my writing … That’s how to make me happy.”
But why had he exchanged many hundreds of emails with a woman in Canada, Sandra Bagaria, who believed herself to be having a romantic relationship with the blogger?
“I feel really guilty about that … I got caught up in the moment and it seemed … fun. And I feel a little like shit about that.” He denied having been sexually excited by the interaction: “I don’t want to go into that aspect particularly of it.”
So…he didn’t really believe that he endangered lives and he led that poor woman on. Even if something good does come out of his actions (unlikely), even if his writing was good, he’s still a jerk.
OK, first of, Bickabeck: f you, scumbag. I said this guy was getting people angry for the way gay people were treated in that savage land, and you turn that into me thinking its ok to kill Jews. F you, and F the empty space between your ears you use to parrot what you are told.
Second, hey, we’re talking about it. My guess is, when discussing gay rights, most of the people reading this forum choose (that is the key word, choose) to ignore the middle east. Now, because this guy lied, we’re talking about it, and you have no choice but to think about it. You can’t hide in NPR bs anymore. So no, what the guy did isn’t so bad. It’s upsetting. I know. But why is it upsetting to you? Because something you thought (or didn’t think, more precisely) has been shoved into your face. Gay people are treated badly in the middle east. Own it.
Pallidbust, no one called you a Nazi, and it is not acceptable for you to swear at my readers or call them names. Clean up your act or I shall ban you from the blog, get it? This is your one and only warning.
Interesting conversation, ladies….pallidbust.
I’m excited that almost everyone has kept their tempers under control and debated with somewhat open minds…
I’m also happy to see almost everyone remain civil to the point that we can still try and hear each other…after all isn’t that the pupose of debate?
Interesting how people turn to anger when they have no other means of stating an opinion…or are outgunned in the debate…
I appreciate the passion of everyone in the forum…however, attacks and abuse are indicative of hate at work…the very thing we see in the Middle East towards gays…I wonder what the true purpose is behind the insults and swearing??? It’s definitely not trying to argue a point because there is no point being stated, only agression…
Hmm..reminds me of an old saying…It’s better to say nothing and have people wonder if your stupid rather than open your mouth and make it painfully obvious…
Have a good day, ladies…pallibust
Bicka called me a Nazi, micah. I consider that a little worse than being called a bad name.
Thank you, Micah 🙂
In case anyone’s interested… I was slightly amused by PB’s first overblown response, and was going to write a reply with a clarification of my meaning and an apology for the misunderstanding.
On reading all the other responses, however… I’m slightly concerned of turning my friend’s blog into a warzone if I do… so I won’t.
Um…. you called me a Nazi. Do you know who the Nazis were?
Pallidbust – the way I read it, Becka DIDN’T call you a Nazi at all. She was using the example to challenge the “means justify ends” notion. And I believe it was your Ann Frank’s reference that led her to use the said example.
Alyx- what’s the penalty for name calling in your stories? A sound spanking?! mouth washing? both? *wink*
Quite… that was the reason I chose that particular example. 🙂
Ok, ok. Sorry. I was wrong. But not Nazi wrong. Just normal wrong.
A very well, thought out response, thank you. Perhaps I could explain…
First, my response wasn’t an allegation of anything against anyone. I was concerning myself solely with the “end justifies the means” argument. However, I was aware of the emotional impact of the topic, and it was intended to make people stop and think “hey… that’s not right”. I did not mean to anger anyone.
I would, however, argue that I was not using a “Reductio ad Hitlerum”, which is basically guilt by association. I’m not arguing that killing Jews is bad because the Nazis did it; I’m not even arguing that killing Jews is bad. I’m actually taking that a self-evidently bad, and haven’t bothered to say that it is. I think it’s bad, regardless of who’s doing it.
Um… I seem to have meandered a bit. Back to the topic…
I was trying to argue using the counterpart of “reductio ad absurdum” (I don’t know if it has a formal name) where instead of taking a ridiculous example, I took a horrific example. In either way, I’m moving a way from the sensible middle ground to show at a glance that saying “the end justifies the means” doesn’t work.
I truly did not mean to offend anyone, even if I did want to evoke an emotional reaction… a reaction that would show that “the end justifies the means” doesn’t always work. And I’m actually not offended by PB’s allegation of my not thinking (among other things)… I actually find it rather amusing, as many of you who know me will understand why.
I wish everyone good luck 🙂
🙂 It’s quite alright. I really enjoyed your perambulation. I have a tendency to do that myself lol!